hello... i agree about the scammers. i have put 4 on the russian black list in the last 5 months..

Hey taff9408 thanks for the additional sites.

Frustrating isnt it...
found a scammer on luckylovers.net but theres a few simple checks
to see if they're real rather quickly..oh..and notice how they're all atrocious at spelling-especially adult ladies from..um...supposedly American-come on scammers havent you got a spellcheck in your message script-damn losers .

HERE: use this dating scammers engine...you can paste in their email, some text from the profile ect... and it'll go out and check google, other dating sites & forums..ive found three clowns this way.
The link
http://www.chanceforlove.com/blacklist/gss/

...more later keep up the good fight :/
Robbie

I agree with you. Here are a lot of scammers and i dont want that... any girl with whom i had contacted here are asking for money..... that's redicilous

all i wish is a real man to take care of me forever

hello everyone
this is really a difficult task to handle.
How can i know i am talking to a scammer?

How do we know what are scammers and whats not, I can't tell any difference, is there something that could tip them off, or is there any to watch out for?

they're all scammers....i believe nobody in here.....
fuck them all

it seems they are everywhere..that suxxs..

Life is all about Honest

Here are more scammers at 4ppl.com:

adam22 , Umarvah , barryvicent , donmecarsdiallo ,
Zedmac , stellaj , jmscole , soniapatrickbenson ,
marthinirubben , barrister404 , tna , giftp ,
comomanijee

I have confirmed the above people as scammers
and saved the proof if I have time will post to a blog
not sure where though

Michael

One more scammer on 4ppl.com

id shadilove

Best Regards
Michael

Not sure if this one is a scammer but
definitely a poser/faker

smith_ally01

the person is using a stolen pic from
a Focus On Hawaii model named Delanie

Proof?

http://www.focushawaii.com/model-talent/delanie/delanie.htm

Best Regards
Michael

Here is another poser/faker but not sure
if they are a scammer:

sexyjessy234

the person is using a stolen pic from
a Focus On Hawaii model.

Proof?

http://www.focusagencyhawaii.com/model-talent/anniem/Annie.htm

Best Regards
Michael

Here is another poser/faker but not sure
if they are a scammer

id reginafrank

anyone who knows anything knows the
person is using a stolen pic of Adultstar
Raven Riley.

No proof needed. Just Google key words
"Raven Riley"

Best Regards
Michael

Here is another poser/faker but not sure
if they are a scammer

id jean27

the person is using a stolen pic from
a Focus On Hawaii model Bella.

Proof?

http://www.focusagencyhawaii.com/model-talent/Joleen/joleenx.htm

Best Regards
Michael

Ok here are 2 people I found using same pics.
The exact pictures are posted on a few legitimate
Anti-Scam websites so consider these two
4ppl.com members to be poser/fakers most
probable scammers. Just no proof to if they
are the same people in the scam reports although
they are using the exact pictures. Here are
the members ids

fiderry12 , freeborn

Proof?

http://www.stop-scammers.com/scammer.asp?id=4237
http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2009-april/11776.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=589

Best Regards
Michael

Here is a poser/faker not sure if they are
scammer but again have exact pictures in
scam report on legitimate anti-scam website
here is the members id:

monicalove

Proof?

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2009-november/12580.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1156

Best Regards
Michael

Reporting another poser/faker on 4ppl.com
but not sure if they are a scammer:

id anita1988

This member is using a stolen picture of
Karla Spice. Google keywords "Karla Spice"
Actually I am seeing many scam reports
crop up where the scammer uses pictures of
Karla Spice, additionally I am seeing the
Karla Spice pictures appear on the dating
sites, social nets and penpal sites. The person
is a poser/faker but no real evidence that they
are the scammers in the scam reports. Well
here are some scam reports on actual legitimate
Anti-Scam websites:

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2008-may/10122.html
http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2007-august/8774.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7198

Best Regards
Michael

p.s. I did not want to put up the official Karla Spice
website address because she is an adultstar, but if
you must you can find it through Google

Here we go another faker/poser but not sure
if the person is a scammer.

id fa4

Actually the picture the member uses is in
a mamoth collection of scam reports. I have
been contacted by daters probably about
50 different daters and I have a very
comprehensive report on scammers using
pictures depicting the same person the
member is posting a picture of. Again the
person is a poser/faker but no real proof
the person is same person in the scam reports.
Becareful the scammers posted in the scam
reports are particularly dangerous playing
the common funds transfer scam whereby
the persons parents were killed as the rebels
entered the house and killed them. The person
escapes to nearby Dakar Senegal where they
now live in refugee camp. They want you to
help to have the fund stored away by their late
father, transfered to your bank account. Ok here
is the scam reports I can post here:

http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8967
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4709
http://419.bittenus.com/7/9/tinagodshal.htm
http://419.bittenus.com/7/9/TinaGodshal.htm
http://www.delphifaq.com/faq/russian_marriage_scams/f4638.shtml
http://www.delphifaq.com/faq/russian_marriage_scams/f2335.shtml?p=0
http://www.delphifaq.com/faq/russian_marriage_scams/f1220.shtml?p=19
http://www.delphifaq.com/faq/russian_marriage_scams/f4638.shtml?p=0
http://www.stop-scammers.com/scammer.asp?id=5791

I have tons of daters who use the same pic as the
4ppl.com member, tons of aliases, ip addresses,
phone numbers, and email addresses.

Be careful folks
Michael

Here is another poser/faker not sure but
probable scammer:

id julietvivan

not much scam reports connected to this
picture, I have seen the picture around
various dating sites, but if you go to

REAL FACES OF SCAMMERS -
http://www.romancescam.com/scammers4real.htm

third column from left - down 15 pictures you
will see picture that depicts the same person
and the picture the member is posting. Notice
right beside the picture in 4th column is real
picture of the scammer who uses the picture
that depicts the same person as the picture
the member uses

Best Regards
Michael

Here is another poser/faker but unsure if the
member is a scammer:

id winne_smith

The person is using a stolen picture of Focus
On Hawaii model Annie.

Proof?

http://www.focusagencyhawaii.com/model-talent/anniem/Annie.htm

Best Regards
Michael

Here is another poser/faker possible scammer

id rose1977

Again go to Scammers4Real
http://www.romancescam.com/scammers4real.htm

go down 3rd column from left to 40th pic and
is same person depicted as the picture the
member is using. No reason for me to do more
but will give you more scam reports:

http://www.stop-scammers.com/scammer.asp?id=5116
http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2009-march/11646.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=242

The member is definitely a poser/faker but no real evidence
that person is same person in the scam reports although
use identical pictures.

Best Regards
Michael

Another poser/faker on 4ppl.com
don't know if the person is a scammer.
Yet another poser/faker using a stolen
picture of Karla Spice.

id kate60l

Proof?

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2008-may/10122.html
http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2007-august/8774.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7198

Best Regards
Michael

p.s. I did not want to put up the official Karla Spice
website address because she is an adultstar, but if
you must you can find it through Google

Here is a poser/faker not sure if they are
scammer

helengood


Proof?

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2009-november/12580.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1156

Best Regards
Michael

Scammers often use a nickname combo of male and female names. or common lastnames like "smith"......even "baby" or some variant to lure you.

Just a heads up.

Another poser/faker on 4ppl.com
don't know if the person is a scammer.
Yet another poser/faker using a stolen
picture of Karla Spice.

id jesu

Proof?

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2008-may/10122.html
http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2007-august/8774.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7198

Best Regards
Michael

p.s. I did not want to put up the official Karla Spice
website address because she is an adultstar, but if
you must you can find it through Google

Here is a poser/faker not sure if they are
scammer

susanthomas63

Proof?

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2009-november/12580.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1156

Best Regards
Michael

What about the posers/fakers using stolen
pictures of Raven Riley?

FAUZIA123 , OSMAN12 , ANOINTED4LOVE ,
LINDALOVE1 , GARIBA , ROSINASCO ,
POUNDS , MOMI1Z , ANNA32 ,

Proven Scammers on 4ppl.com who use
stolen pics of Raven Riley

odame , oxbone , asdrds , abigil , evlynjames ,
lorrettayankyera , andybone , christie_1 ,
goodluck1z , humu024 , AnitaWilberg ,
cynthia1234 , roose , michellscott ,
- Scam Report:
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1450&start=210

More Raven Riley related scam reports:

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2007-october/8963.html
http://www.romancescam.com/blog/blog-bid-3435
http://www.romancescam.com/blog/blog-bid-4977
http://www.romancescam.com/blog/blog-bid-3912
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4492
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1450

Best Regards
Michael

Here is another poser/faker but cant prove
they are a scammer.

id yulieluv

the member uses stolen picture of a model
named Lexi from Focus On Hawaii.

Proof?

http://www.focushawaii.com/model-talent/lexie/lexie.htm

Additionally I have a scam report although I can't
prove the member is same person in the scam report
just that the member is using exact same picture as
scammer. Could be random poser/faker is all.

http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25442

Best Regards
Michael

Here are a few more posers/fakers
using stolen pics of model Annie from
Focus On Hawaii:

CLAIR4REAL , LINDADREAMS , ronky02

Proof?

http://www.focusagencyhawaii.com/model-talent/anniem/Annie.htm

Again the above are definitely poser/fakers
but no proof they are scammers but could
possibly be scammers.

Best Regards
Michael

Here is a poser/faker not sure if they are
scammer

lauradrew

Proof?

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2009-november/12580.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1156

Best Regards
Michael

Reporting another poser/faker but
no proof they are scammer.

id babyamin

Proof?

http://www.romancescam.com/blog/blog-bid-6104
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1108

I just can't prove that the member
is same person in the scam reports.

Best Regards
Michael

Here is another poser/faker using a
stolen picture of Raven Riley:

id mariamNY

No proof needed. Just Google key words
"Raven Riley"

Regardless here are some Raven Riley
related scam reports:

http://www.womenrussia.com/blackpage591.htm
http://www.womenrussia.com/blackpage583.htm
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4492

Best Regards
Michael

Here is some posers/fakers using a
stolen picture of Next Door Nikki
or Nikki Simms:

jent_williams , lonlytracy90

No proof needed. Just Google key words
"Nextdoor Nikki"

Regardless here is some Nextdoor Nikki
related scam reports:

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2008-march/9742.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4388
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11580

Best Regards
Michael

Reporting scammer on 4ppl.com

id sexyrose101

Proof?

http://www.romancescam.com/blog/blog-bid-5920

Best Regards
Michael

Keep up the good work in keeping us all informed Michael.

I can see that "MY" original post is still alive and well. :)

Here is a huge list of scammers on 4ppl.com
http://www.romancescam.com/blog/category-cid-3-p-1

nelsongibson , mayluv , roselady4u ,
mrjjohn101 , jemima2000 , lilianadams42 ,
davidbrinkley45 , dinilauren ,
jenifercollins , jessical , mercy_walters ,
fransica , roseline28 , bolar , rose5000 ,
giftysharks , ericvalk10 , d100 , salomey01 ,
saralundgren20 , britannybenita ,
lizzybetty , morganparis , marykimball ,
kate2009 , ayisha_2002 , lindey121 ,
nisal4love , Jeff1 , fishrome , talkmercy ,
mournjayne73 , dwillcox , sexyrose101 ,
mary91170 , merrysex , barton61 ,
jayne4real , linda221 , ericacole , sow ,
jharris2000 , trustme054 , terrynelson ,
kendracares01 , searchingshamalol ,
spacious20 , janecrouford , Thomas73 ,
mariexxx , jackiesexxy , jessica121 ,
omolomo_labozo , imlizzymoore , llll ,
m_cole , lucy10 , monica009 , lara1986 ,
sarah_william , nogames2010 , love0111 ,
janematt008 , loveivy , tessiwizzy3004 ,
nancypretty25 , missellen , jenny_123 ,
bensontora , cyntia45 , jennife5050 ,
marget , lizzabeth , sherryluv4st ,
anita121 , babaobo , abi23ab , rose19 ,
kimphilips3 , gagelinda61 , 1974 ,
love22222 , scourtdavis11 , wals ,
Robert4realove , jonhdominic , heethy ,
johngills12 , Maryla_1 , prettykiss09 ,
casiewayne04 , milletmorgan ,
sharonjones323 , tinageorge1978 ,
ronky4real , mellisa123 , cve9bert78 ,
jesseylove , clara155 , shirelle058 ,
lizzynerry , EfuaIdun , sexyjean ,
affectionateone , lonely4luv ,
alberta_love , larrisaseekinglol ,
Serapolla , godholdmebeautiful ,
patralove123 , sweetlawrentia ,
janetmandy , janeforyou001 ,
Dawyha , ayodele01 ,

Best Regards
Michael

Another poser/faker on 4ppl.com
don't know if the person is a scammer.
Yet another poser/faker using a stolen
picture of Karla Spice.

id mary122

Proof?

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2008-may/10122.html
http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2007-august/8774.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7198

Best Regards
Michael

p.s. I did not want to put up the official Karla Spice
website address because she is an adultstar, but if
you must you can find it through Google

Reporting another poser/faker on 4ppl.com
although can't prove they are a scammer.

id erika01

The picture used is of model Erika from
Focus On Hawai:
http://www.focushawaii.com/model-talent/erika/erika.htm

The model does not seem to be on Focus
On Hawaii anymore and am not sure of the
true models whereabouts.

Here is some scam reports related to Erika:

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2006-december/7246.html
http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2008-september/10776.html
http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2007-october/9043.html
http://www.romancescam.com/blog/blog-bid-1166
http://www.delphifaq.com/faq/russian_marriage_scams/f2315.shtml
http://www.anti-scam.org/scammer/1871-2.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=47
http://www.delphifaq.com/faq/russian_marriage_scams/f2315.shtml?p=1#73902
http://www.delphifaq.com/faq/russian_marriage_scams/f2494.shtml?p=0#91346
http://www.delphifaq.com/faq/russian_marriage_scams/f2315.shtml?p=1#96251
http://www.delphifaq.com/faq/russian_marriage_scams/f2315.shtml?p=2#126744

So member is definite poser/faker just
can't prove they are a scammer

Best Regards
Michael

P.S. about 2 years ago was in contact with
a dater who used exact pic and went under
the name of Debra Lewis debralewis@hotmail.com
debralewis@yahoo.com

Here is a poser/faker not sure if they are
scammer here is the members id:

dlove

Proof?

http://www.dotsilver.com/dating-scam/2009-november/12580.html
http://www.romancescam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1156

Best Regards
Michael

i can see there really a loy of scammer here

here is full with scammers!but,where is interpolice?!?

NEVER WIRE FUNDS VIA WESTERN UNION, MONEYGRAM or any other wire service - anyone who asks you to do so is a scammer.
FAKE CASHIER CHECKS & MONEY ORDERS ARE COMMON, and BANKS WILL CASH THEM AND THEN HOLD YOU RESPONSIBLE when the fake is discovered weeks later.
CRAIGSLIST IS NOT INVOLVED IN ANY TRANSACTION, and does not handle payments, guarantee transactions, provide escrow services, or offer "buyer protection" or "seller certification"
NEVER GIVE OUT FINANCIAL INFORMATION (bank account number, social security number, eBay/PayPal info, etc.)
AVOID DEALS INVOLVING SHIPPING OR ESCROW SERVICES and know that ONLY A SCAMMER WILL "GUARANTEE" YOUR TRANSACTION.
DO NOT RENT HOUSING WITHOUT SEEING THE INTERIOR, OR PURCHASE EXPENSIVE ITEMS SIGHT-UNSEEN - in all likelihood that housing unit is not actually for rent and that cheap item does not exist.
DO NOT SUBMIT TO CREDIT CHECKS OR BACKGROUND CHECKS FOR A JOB OR FOR HOUSING UNTIL YOU HAVE MET THE INTERVIEWER OR LANDLORD/AGENT IN PERSON.

Who should I notify about fraud or scam attempts?

U.S. Federal

Internet Fraud Complaint Center
FTC Video: How to report scams to the FTC
FTC online complaint form
FTC toll free hotline: 877-FTC-HELP (877-382-4357)
Consumer Sentinel/Military (for reports from services members or their families)
SIIA Software and Content Piracy reporting

resources for Ohio residents

Ohio Attorney General Consumer Complaints

Canada

Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre or 888-495-8501 (toll-free)
RCMP

If you are defrauded by someone you met in person, contact your local police department.

If you suspect that a craigslist post may be part of a scam, please send us the details
Recognizing scams

Most scams involve one or more of the following:

inquiry from someone far away, often in another country
Western Union, Money Gram, cashier's check, money order, shipping, escrow service, or a "guarantee"
inability or refusal to meet face-to-face before consumating transaction

Examples of Scams

1. Someone claims that craigslist will guarantee a transaction, certify a buyer/seller, OR claims that craigslist will handle or provide protection for a payment.

These claims are fraudulent, as craigslist does not have any role in any transaction.
Scammer will often send an official looking email that appears to come from craigslist, offering a guarantee, certifying a seller, providing payment services -- all such emails are fakes!

2. distant person offers a genuine-looking (but fake) cashier's check

you receive an email (examples below) offering to buy your item, or rent your apartment, sight unseen.
cashier's check is offered for your sale item, as a deposit for an apartment, or for your services.
value of cashier's check often far exceeds your item - scammer offers to "trust" you, and asks you to wire the balance via money transfer service
banks will often cash these fake checks AND THEN HOLD YOU RESPONSIBLE WHEN THE CHECK FAILS TO CLEAR, including criminal prosecution in some cases!
scam often involves a 3rd party (shipping agent, business associate owing buyer money, etc)

3. Someone requests wire service payment via Western Union or MoneyGram:

Scam "bait" items include apartments, laptops, TVs, cell phones, tickets, and other high value items
Often claim that an MTCN or confirmation code is needed before he can withdraw your money - this is FALSE, once you've wired money, it is GONE.
Common countries currently include: Nigeria, Romania, United Kingdom, Ukraine, Spain, Italy, Netherlands - but could be anywhere
Apartment listing may be local, but landlord/owner is "travelling" or "relocating" and needs you to wire money to them abroad
Deal often seems too good to be true, price is too low, rent is below market, etc

4. distant person offers to send you a money order and then have you wire money:

this is ALWAYS a scam, in our experience - the cashier's check is FAKE
sometimes accompanies an offer of merchandise, sometimes not
scammer often asks for your name, address, etc for printing on the fake check
deal often seems too good to be true

5. distant seller suggests use of an online escrow service.

most online escrow sites are FRAUDULENT, operated by scammers
for more info, do a google search on "fake escrow" or "escrow fraud"

6. distant seller asks for a partial payment upfront, after which he will ship goods

he says he trusts you with the partial payment
he may say he has already shipped the goods
deal often sounds too good to be true

7. foreign company offers you a job receiving payments from customers, then wiring funds

foreign company may claim it is unable to receive payments from its customers directly
you are typically offered a percentage of payments received
this kind of "position" may be posted as a job, or offered to you via email

Actual scam emails sent to craigslist users:


Hi,
I am selling this car because my platoon has been sent back to Afganistan and don't want it get old in my backyard. The price is low because I need to sell it before November 16th. It has no damage, no scratches or dents, no hidden defects. It is in immaculate condition, meticulously maintained and hasn't been involved in any accident...I do have the title , clear, under my name. The Denali has 35,000 miles VIN# 1GKEK63U16J138428 .
It is still available for sale if interested, price as stated in the ad $4,300. The car is in Baltimore, MD, in case it gets sold I will take care of shipping. Let me know if you are interested, email back.
Regards!!!




First of all I want to thank you for your interest for my car. I sell it at this price($2,980.00 ) because I have been divorced recently. Now the car is in my property and as a woman i don't need it. This car is in excellent working conditions, no scratches, flaws or any kind of damage, slightly used in 100% working and looking conditions and comes with a clear title.

From the beginning you have to know that for the payment I request only secure pay, I prefer the payment to be done using eBay services. We will use a safe payment method because I am affiliated at eBay and I have a purchase protection account for $20,000.00 The final price that I want for this car is $2,980.00 including shipping and handling.

If you are interested in buying it please provide me your full name and address so I can initiate the deal through eBay.

I will wait your answer very soon.




Hello,

I am looking for caring and honest person to watch my 3 years old daughter while I work, during our stay in the state and a friend introduced craiglist.com to me, I was searching on Childcare Babysitter, when your Ad post pumped up as a Childcare and Babysitter, am interested in your service as my babysitter/Childcare.. My Little daughters is (Mellina ) , I would like you to watch over her while i am at work in your Location , I reside in United Kingdom,I will be coming to the States in about two weeks time , Cos I just got a contract with Boss Perfume fashion industry down there, I work as a model and the contract will last for a month, the duration of our service wil be from 10am to 5pm, monday thru friday, I would like to know if she will be taken care of in your childcare centre/Home, or the hotel room where i would be lodging, It's Okay by me, any of this ways.

My little daughter (Mellina ) is 3 years old, I will be waiting patiently for your email indicating the cost of everything,I mean the price for your service,how long you will be available to take care of her,how much u charge per week. she is just three years old as i have said earlier and i will be glad to update you and make the payment in advance to show you how serious i am. So please get back to me as soon as you can if you will be able to handle her and take very good care of her for me.

Email me back
Your's faithfully


> Thanks for your mail,Since the cost of your bike is $800 i just contacted
my client about the cost of your bike and it present condition and he said
there is no problem about that.So my client said he will be issuing you a
Certified Check of $4000 while you wire 3000 to me through Western Union
Money Trasfer and you deduct the cost of your bike $800 and keep the
remaining $200 which my client said you should take for the terms of
Transaction and Agreement between you and my client.So i will like you to
send me your full contact information to where my client will be sending you
> the Certified Check like this:
> name.........
> full address.............
> city...............
> state.............
> country..........
> zipcode............
> cell/office/home phone number.......................
> I will look forward to the requested information as soon as possible so
that the check can be sent out to you immediately And do get back to me
with the Pics of the bike so tha! t my client will be Able to see What he
is paying off.Get back to me immediately. Looking torwards your
> respond,
> Best Regards.



Still have questions? try our help desk discussion forum or send us a note.

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While you here drank and were drunk, we ruined you! Factories have sold, rich became! And to all of you of health, live richly! And we sent resources on the West! And that crumbs at you does not remain! And that healthy children was not born! For your resources we will give to you of syringes, And tank spirit, to death упиться! Drugs in veins pour in richly! Roll as a pig, near to your hut! For us all of you cattle, dung, Papuans! What for to Papuans terrestrial stocks? You hear pigs, we became rich, We will soon take away from you your huts. We will give a casino, cigarettes, sex films! Smoke and drink, give birth to the moronic! Sick ugly creatures are not dangerous to us - we will destroy them a counterfeit medicine. You gradually will die vagabonds! And such you have chosen a share! And your earth is necessary to us without the people! We will bury you in any weather! So good luck, live richly, your salary How much will allow you. And if the salary to you does not allow to live - so would be hung up, - nobody forces!